Talk for Article "‘So polarized and so toxic’: Groups clash over gender self-identification"

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  1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    “MacLachlan was suspended from Twitter in July 2018 after what she calls “one of those nasty little squabbles.” Twitter said MacLachlan’s post violated their guidelines against hateful conduct.”

    This is a screenshot of the Tweet referred to: https://www.peaktrans.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/tweet-i-got-suspended-for1.png

    Can it be added to the article?

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
      DU
      Deleted User

      Hi Alan, thank you for the screenshot.

      Unfortunately as we won’t be able to directly verify the content of the tweet outside of the screenshot, it isn’t appropriate to put into the story.

      We aim to have as much transparency and accountability as possible, especially in a story such as this where tensions could run high.

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        Neither can the fact that she was suspended by Twitter be verified. Perhaps that whole paragraph should be deleted as it does not specify what Twitter thought was ‘hateful conduct’ or why and leaves the distinct impression it was something very serious such as threatening violence, being racist or anti-semitic or similar?

  2. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    Is the Story about the Protests, or the debate?
    From my understanding, groups such as a women’s place, wish to debate how transgender people are able to access a GRC, this is currently a very bureaucratic and medicalised process that is failing the group of people it is meant to help, however their arguments are based on transgender rights which are protected under the 2010 equality’s act (https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010). Their are no proposed changes to this act, and any debate is nearly a decade late. and as their is “little to no” evidence that back up the fears expressed by these groups either over the past decade in the UK, or in other countries were the GRC can be obtained by self declaration.
    Attempting to deny a group of people their existing rights, out of an irrational fear of them is not a basis of a debate.

  3. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I’m with the signage ‘ NotADebate ‘. Issue tracking groups have worked their way up to a kind of maximum PH imbalance or a general explosion, for what? Some of the pumped up issues seem like the movie ‘Minority Report’ only pre-crime before laws are written. Whatever issue war these various groups pretend to prosecute advancing to each other’s throats, the outcome sought seems some new type of human categories floating in and around these debates, whereas being part of the human race is enough of a category. IMO.

    Reading about these groups pursuing these issues in the UK I could easily imagine a partnering with USA’s ‘Yahoo’ Libertarian Party, as in, ” Your not telling me who I am! ” blah blah blah ranting on.

    Though quaint and simplistic maybe ‘ no rules are good rules ‘ before starting to regroup human types.

    Edited: 2018-07-20 17:43:28 By Tim Colby (talk | contribs) + 25 Characters .. + 3% change.‎‎ (Note | Diff)

  4. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I’ve read this story as written so many times already; it mostly functions to reinforce partisanship despite being quite even-handed. I would suggest, next time, throwing in some historical context and the evolution of thought around transgender and feminist issues.

    There’s a deep history between feminist movements and transgender liberation movements. Some, but probably not most, feminist theorists developed trans-exclusionary positions in the 70s. Prominent theorists started moving away from trans-exclusionary positions in the 90s around the time that queer theory emerged. Around the same time, gay and lesbian liberation movements formed alliances with transgender liberation movements, which is when LGB became LGBT.

    These days, it is a minority position in the feminist movement–and gay/lesbian liberation movements for that matter–to be trans-exclusionary. Some of the trans-exclusionary feminists who grew up in the 70s and 80s are still around and have not changed their position. The transgender movement reached mainstream awareness and started making inroads in rights-related legislation in the last ten years or so. That feminist minority has grown more vocal in response, as has the desire for an oppositional voice among lay people skeptical of transgender liberation.

    Anyway, I would hope such a historical discussion of how we got here would make this kind of story function to build bonds rather than reinforce walls.

  5. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    On a different note — “the English seaside town of Brighton” does not exist. Brighton is part of the unitary authority of Brighton and Hove, granted city status in 2001. It used to be a town, of course, up to 1997. I propose “resort”, which it was and still is.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
      DU
      Deleted User

      Thanks Jennifer and good point, that is updated with your proposal now.

  6. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    Like so many WikiTrib stories, this is not so much news as industrial scale axe-grinding.
    Partisan, much?

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s good to see this debate aired … but don’t pretend it’s news. It’s a perspective. Know the difference.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Thanks for your comment Andrew. We considered this a newsworthy subject seeing as protests, meetings and the consultation surrounding the Gender Recognition Act are ongoing right now.

  7. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    “Maria MacLachlan, 61, says her views have become more entrenched after a “web of lies” circulated about her on the internet after a tussle with a trans protester in September 2017.”

    It was NOT a ‘tussle’. Maria was assaulted during an unprovoked attack and her attacker now has a criminal record for assault by beating.

  8. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    “cisgendered women” is a meaningless term: they are women. I suggest deleting ‘cisgendered’.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
      DU
      Deleted User

      Hi Alan, “cisgendered women” is not a meaningless term, especially not in the context of debate over gender identification.

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        Can you define it then?

        1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
          DU
          Deleted User

          Merriam-Webster defines it as: “of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cisgender

          And here’s the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

  9. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    “wave rainbow flags”

    Some are clearly rainbow flags but others are flags of pink and blue used by trans activists. It is clear that trans activists do not have support from all LGB groups (eg http://lesbianalliance.org.uk/open-letter-to-stonewall/), so it might be better to drop the word ‘rainbow’?

    Also, “Drivers sound their car horns in support” – I don’t think we can presume to know whether this was in support or in protest. I suggest deleting ‘in support’ although that would still leave the impression that’s what was being implied.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
      DU
      Deleted User

      I’ve removed “rainbow” as the protesters were indeed waving a variety of flags.

      As for the car horns, a couple of cars tooted and their inhabitants also cheered the protesters, so it’s clear that the horns were sounded in support of the protest.

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        With respect, that simply shows that some car horns were possibly sounded in support. Although they could have been, it’s an unnecessary assumption they all were and that they were cheering in support, even if it was clear to them what the protests were actually about – I suspect any waving of a rainbow flag in Brighton will get some cheers. Better to simply say there were car horns sounded.

  10. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    It is the baby’s sex that is recorded on a birth certificate, not gender. See:

    https://www.gov.uk/register-birth

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_certificate#/media/File:Specimen_England_and_Wales_Long_Birth_Certificate.jpg

    The baby’s sex is recorded by the doctor/midwife on the Personal Child Health Record (the ‘Red Book’) issued by the NHS after the birth.

    So:

    “In Britain, transgender people can change the gender on their birth certificate if they obtain a gender recognition certificate.”

    should read:

    “In Britain, transgender people can change the sex recorded on their birth certificate if they obtain a gender recognition certificate.”

  11. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    ” … 61-year-old feminist who critiques the trans rights movement on her blog, told WikiTribune in a vegan cafe in London.”

    I’d suggest removing the “Vegan” from the sentence, since it will trigger a pre-disposition and bias towards the speaker + it doesn’t contribute in any way to the story and discussion being told. Especially since it will divert attention from the topic and allows for a pointless attack angle for the opponents.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Agreed.

      Declaration of interest: I am the husband of the 61-year-old feminist.

    2. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
      DU
      Deleted User

      Thanks Māris, I’ve removed “vegan”.

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