Talk for Article "Help us analyze gender pay gap data"

Talk about this Article

  1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I thought this might be an interesting stat to include in the article. A Nature study showed “Universities, pharmaceutical companies, funders and other science-focused organizations maintain a gender pay gap that is 50% greater than the national average for all employers.” and “Of the 172 organizations included in the analysis, 96% pay men more than women, according to the companies’ reported median pay gaps. Nationwide, 78% of all organizations favour men financially.”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-04309-8

  2. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    Yes, I had the same reaction when I saw the “2 dollar bill” image. I think Wikitribune should change it.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Hi there is already a new image.

  3. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I feel like medias (and activists) tend to take the subject from the wrong angle :

    Everyone seems to take as granted that men and women enjoy exactly the same domains of work, which I think is, by experience, false.

    Men tend to choose jobs that are aimed at productivity and money-generating (engineering, stem sciences, business, computer development, etc.) while women tend to choose jobs that are care-related (medecine, nursing, social work, teaching).

    Since we mostly live in a capitalist world, productivity or money-generating jobs tend to have a better pay. Care-related jobs are usually paid by the government via taxes, limiting the wages.

    Maybe it’s time to not only look at the macro figures, but the social behaviors behind it.

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      I completely agree, but part of why this kind of analysis hasn’t been more central in looking at the problem is because it is frequently seen by parts of the feminist movement as anti-women, because it suggests biological career determinism. Personally I have seen too much evidence of this kind of career bias with my own eyes (and second hand through my network) to dismiss this as a false gender construct.

      An example I would give is the Kibbutz in Israel, where people get to decide somewhat what kind of roles they would do and it wasn’t intended for people to do gender normative work, yet over time women ended up caring and nurturing and men ended up doing.

      Honestly, I think simply trying to articulate this trend in our societies, and pointing out that our current capitalist model is pretty much set against the work that women choose to do and sees them being rewarded less than men in the work that men choose to do (exactly as you say Jonathan) would be a huge step forward in the debate.

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    – “Do you see any omissions or limitations in the data?”

    I think hours worked could be important and the type of worker i.e. full time or part time. Also the level in the organization seems like it would be important.

    Looking at the ons – https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/womeninthelabourmarket/2013-09-25

    “In April to June 2013, looking at the not seasonally adjusted series, around 13.4 million women aged 16 to 64 were in work (42% part-time) and 15.3 million men (12% part-time)”

    Full time 13.464 million men vs 7.772 million women.
    Part time 1.836 million men vs 5.628 million women.

    I’d imagine part time tends to be a lot less per hour causing some of the gender pay gap. Also when aiming at 50:50 representation we should remember full time across the country is 66:33.

    Also from same ons:
    “For example, full-time men worked on average 44 hours per week whilst full-time women worked 40 hours per week.”

    That’s 10% more on average that full time men work over women, I’d imagine that could bring a bit of a storm.

    If you consider a full time employer at 37.5hrs per week, the 40 hour people are working an extra 6%, 44 hour people are an extra 17%. This would suggest in average full time males vs average full time females an 11% extra work gap, whether this is reflected in pay or needs to be adjusted for is another question.

    Example: “In other words when comparing median hourly rates, women earn 96p for every £1 that men earn.”

    (96*37.5)/40 = 90p
    (100*37.5)/44 = 85.2p
    That’s the pay gap reversed in this case assuming average full time employee numbers from the ons.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Hey Steven, that definitely could do with being in the data for clarification.

      According to the ONS in Jan 2018, a gap remains in most sectors when considering just part-time workers. The pay gap for senior officials and chief executives working part-time is 30.6 percent in favour of men, according to the ONS figures, and the full-time pay gap is 24.7 percent in the same jobs. Both genders who worked full-time were paid more by the hour. It doesn’t help tease out the proportion of part-time and full-time workers overall in the new pay gap data though, but it does suggest that distinguishing part/full-time is more sophisticated way of looking at work and pay patterns.

      https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/understandingthegenderpaygapintheuk/2018-01-17

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        Thank you for your reply and the extra information. Think we are agreed that there needs to be more data for better clarity.

        You mentioned senior officials and think there as well a breakdown would also be interesting in the future, i.e. cfo vs cto rather than senior due to supply and demand for different roles which may go down gender lines.

        I noticed from 2013 to 2018 they have now omitted overtime which if unpaid makes quite a difference in hourly pay, especially with the line from the 2013 report about: “full-time men worked on average 44 hours per week whilst full-time women worked 40 hours per week”, that said didn’t define if those were unpaid or not.

        I do see why they have omitted paid overtime due to the extra – “the fact that men tend to work more overtime” which would often be at a higher rate as the reason for this.

        I think key is the unpaid overtime effect on a hourly wage would certainly be a factor to consider to get a true hourly wage for an individual at times unpaid overtime really isn’t voluntary across many industries.

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    DU
    Deleted User

    Jordan Peterson in this Channel 4 interview says, “the claim that the wage gap between men and women is only due to sex is wrong…and there is no doubt about that”

    Can you include his vantage point in your story? It’s an interesting view that I haven’t heard before.

    https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=5m18s

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      We will definitely include a range of views. I think his was based on the gap being due to factors other than sex that result in inequality at work, such as women not asking for pay rises. These are definitely things to explore in the piece.

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)
        DU
        Deleted User

        Thanks Lydia.

        I’ve heard others break this topic down into a discussion of equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. Gender pay is focused on equality of outcome.

        I’d like to know…
        What roadblocks exist for equality of opportunity?
        How do you measure equality of opportunity?
        What are the downsides of equality of outcome?

        Look forward to your piece.

  6. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I think I’d also like to suggest a very separate point.

    A lot of articles (historically) on the pay gap suffer from bad statistics. They average wages across the economy without regard for who is working what type of jobs. I think it would serve social justice more to report on any gap that exists between people doing the same jobs in a company.

    I’m well aware that women seeking low-income jobs is a problem. But we should also really consider women accepting low-balled salary offers as a problem, while their male counterparts don’t.

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      Absolutely. Pay gap reporting assumes a lot of the time. This article would address why gaps exist and why straight averages don’t always, if ever, tell the whole story.

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        Merci! I’m glad to see that this experiment in reporting seems to be working at least somewhat well!

        1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

          Good to hear!

  7. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I’m sorry if I’m doing this incorrectly, but I made an edit to this in the story, and then wasn’t sure how to go about it.

    The Times article is an example of clickbait journalism and should not be included. All the article actually states is that male MP’s make more private extra-ministerial income than their female MP’s. The government doesn’t pay female MP’s less than male MP’s. That’s a bunch of tosh.

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Your edit did go through. I’ve kept in the article and clarified that their base salaries were the same, as does the Times article (although that’s not in their headline).

      Kept it in as I think it could be interesting to look closer at what that gap actually means in detail – why are male MPs being paid more or doing more extra-curricular work, for example. What do you think?

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        I think that’s a good start – I’m not a fan of articles with clickbait headlines tbh, but yes, it may well be worth exploring WHY those male MP’s make more than their female counterparts outside parliament.

        However, as the article states, their is data skewing by a few rich MP’s who have private businesses. On the flip side there is the potential that female MP’s have to be more dedicated to their job (to gain respect etc), and have less time to spend on extra-parliamentary activities. May be worth looking into, but I feel like WT should write about it without the bias The Times article induces. You should read the comments section for that article, it’s inundated with people threatening to cancel their subscriptions.

  8. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    I don’t know what the data will contain, but it would be interesting if there is anything about how the companies set wages. For instance, do companies with collective bargaining or wage transparency have this issue versus companies that solely set wages through individual negotiation?

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Hi Ali, this is an interesting aspect. I will look into it.

  9. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

    Some questions:
    1) How many companies are there in the UK?
    2) How many companies in the UK have 249 or less employees?
    3) What percentage of UK’s workforce do these companies with <249 employees make up?
    4) What percentage of UK's total GDP does private business comprise?
    5) Are there any estimates or studies that suggest how that figure would be affected if female employees in private businesses in the UK, within each industry, were paid exactly the same as male employees?
    6) What's the pay gap between women of colour and their white counterparts (in similar industries)?
    7) What's the pay gap between women of colour and their white, male counterparts?

    1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

      Hi George,
      Questions 5, 6, 7 all presume the result of the pay gap rather than identifying if such a pay gap for identical work exists then identifying what it amounts to. Enough is said about what identical work means and whether a gap exists or doesn’t exist that it remains a question.
      This will be a difficult subject to sort out but only if identifying if a gap for equal work exists is the first question that is asked and answered. On the other hand it will be dead easy to sort out if it begins with a gap existing as a unassailable fact

      1. [ This comment is from a user you have muted ] (show)

        Hey Del, thanks for your comment. Any story that comes out of this will look at what the gender pay gap means, and in this context it takes into account pay gaps across the company, so not necessarily for equal work. However, it does flag where women and men are unequal in the structures of the workplace – i.e. pay gap exists because more men in senior, higher paid positions. And any analysis will look at why that is.

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